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Sales Figures/Data "by March"

Last post 1/13/2009 10:39 PM by Funkmasonry Industries. 73 replies.
  • 1/13/2009 12:02 AM

    Sales Figures/Data "by March"

  • 1/13/2009 12:32 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    ...by March?

    I have a game "live" starting from day two and planning to release another one or two by this month but this rumor cuts off my legs.
    I can't believe that building some reports takes 4 months... come on ms guys, tell us something!
    What's the matter?

    Please tell us that these rumors are rubbish and that you're going to release reports in a week or two (two months starting from the beginning of the CG are enough to do everything)
  • 1/13/2009 1:00 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    That article says that they were told by Microsoft. I wouldn't consider that a rumor; I'd consider that fact.

    That said I feel your pain. I've been waiting since launch to see how Bloc is doing. That's exactly why I'm focusing on the iPhone right now; without knowing how well XBLCG is doing financially, I feel hesitant to continue focusing on it as a market when there are platforms like the iPhone where detailed stats and trend tracking are available for developers and the financial viability of the platform is already known. I hope the reports come in and I'm under-estimating the popularity of XBLCG because I do love XNA, C#, and making games for the Xbox 360. But sadly I'm trying to start a business so money tends to be priority one for me right now.
  • 1/13/2009 1:07 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Hi Nick, I'm doing the same thing! I can't focus on XNA without knowing what we are doing... My business is working on iPhone right now, and I won't change for now. I do like XNA and C# but as you said... money tend to be a priority!
  • 1/13/2009 1:30 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Nick Gravelyn:
    That article says that they were told by Microsoft. I wouldn't consider that a rumor; I'd consider that fact.

    That said I feel your pain. I've been waiting since launch to see how Bloc is doing. That's exactly why I'm focusing on the iPhone right now; without knowing how well XBLCG is doing financially, I feel hesitant to continue focusing on it as a market when there are platforms like the iPhone where detailed stats and trend tracking are available for developers and the financial viability of the platform is already known. I hope the reports come in and I'm under-estimating the popularity of XBLCG because I do love XNA, C#, and making games for the Xbox 360. But sadly I'm trying to start a business so money tends to be priority one for me right now.


    I quote every single word!

    I love XNA c# coding, but I do games as a business since years and I cannot do business without reports. There is nothing here, no reports no trends, nothing! Just some weird charts showing really strange and cahotic results.
    Now, if this voice is confirmed (or not officially denied) I have to move my business back to Iphone, java mobile and online PC (just like you) where things and cash flow are well known. I'm in touch with other creators and this is a shared point of view, we need numbers now.
  • 1/13/2009 1:58 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    "by march" has been said in these forums (Pheel or Jenkmeister I suspect)... thats when the 1st payments are so really they have to be.

    However if "By March" means next week or the last possible week of March nobody knows...
  • 1/13/2009 2:20 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Well I have a reasonable knowlege of my sales, And I have to say, it's not too great.

    But i'm still focusing on XNA / XBox360 as my primary market.

    Why?  Because I strongly feel that Microsoft will resolve the business issues.  Right now, the sales environment is pretty horrible for XBLCG, and I'm sure msft knows that.    If msft rushes to provide sales figures (0 sales) to a lot of good games,  then what is that going to do to the developers?   Msft has to fix the other issues (revolving around user ratings) before sales figures are helpful.  

    So when that day comes, I'd prefer to have another high-quality title ready for release, thus my continued support and focus on the XNA platform.





  • 1/13/2009 2:22 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    I agree, we need sales data, but I also believe in the potential of the distribution channel, and the platform in general. I think we just need to give it some time, Live arcade was slowish in the beginning if I recall as well. I'm sure Microsoft could of delayed the release of community games until this infrastructure was complete, but I think it was a good move in getting it out early.

    I also think we will also start seeing a nice boost of publicity as Microsoft launches games on to the service along side promotional advertising, and as long as creators continue to make games that get reviewed and do well. For instance on Destructoid Carnyvale Showtime scored a 9, this is better than many XBLA games and disk games, the more good reviews that come in for games that are on the channel, the more people will come to the channel for these games and thus the more we all get exposed to additional traffic.

    So sales data or not, I personally believe we are right now in charge of the success of the community games distribution channel, if we make great games, and we spend the time marketing them and getting them reviewed we will slowly but surely draw more and more traffic into the channel.


  • 1/13/2009 2:22 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    The ZMan:

    However if "By March" means next week or the last possible week of March nobody knows...


    No offense Zman, we've all played this word game 1 too many times ( Dream Build Play competitions ) and I'm weary of it, as well as many others.  You are probably also sick to death of moderating it too.

    5 months without sales data for your clients is unacceptable business practice to me. 

    If they can whip up some sales numbers for Major Nelson every week how hard could it be to gather that for the 100 or so games and then email it out to the creators email on file?  Just as a temporary solution till the web interface is up?  Even if they only do it once a month.

    Ok, I understand the pitfalls like reporting inaccurate number of sales due to insuffiecent testing on sql query then creator thinks they have more sales than they do, etc, etc...

    But dang, 5 months of waiting for launch titles is rough.  How many businesses can get away with holding a clients money for 5 months interest free?

    BTW Zman this is not directed at you in particular but is just a conversation.
  • 1/13/2009 2:29 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Yes we have debated it all before, but its not the first time in these forums people have repeated a thread multiple times.

    The bottom line here is that it was very apparant on day #1 that there were no numbers and Microsofts response has always been "We chose to release the platform before the business side of things". If the alternative to keep you all happy was to wait till next March to launch both at the same time then personally I think they made the right call.

    They've made no promises that were not kept. They also told you early on that there would be no money till March. For the record many businesses oprate net 60 or net 90 which means you dont get paid for 2 or 3 months interest free.

    Sure you can be as mad as you like, and I agree that its hard/impossible to run a business like this and yes they deserve to lose people to Apple or their real jobs if thats what it takes to put food on your table and keep you happy. I even agree that they should be being a little more open and transparant and maybe working on an intermim workaround.

    But posting yet more threads in here does nothing to change anything. The deal hasn't changed in the last 4 weeks and it didn't change becuase of the article posted above. That of course is not going to stop most of you so rant away....
  • 1/13/2009 4:02 AM In reply to

    As an incoming XNA developer

    Why isn't this information made available to me by Microsoft? http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3172233 Given that Major Nelson has made a habit of posting the most popular Community Games on his blog each week alongside the most popular Xbox 360, Xbox Live Arcade, and Xbox games, it seems obvious that those XNA developers know more precise sales data for their creations than the public. But as it turns out, Microsoft hasn't released anything more to developers, leaving them to grasp at the straws available in Major Nelson's weekly top ten list. Speaking under the condition of anonymity, XNA developers revealed to MTV Multiplayer that there's been absolutely no information shared with developers. A Microsoft spokesperson told Multiplayer, "All Community Games developers will be able to access sales and download numbers through the [XNA Creators Club] Web site by March," leaving developers with virtually no metric for success in the meantime. It must be frustrating to finally have this avenue for delivering console games to gamers and being able to make some money off of it, only to be unable to gauge how well you're doing. For the sake of XNA developers, let's hope that Microsoft is able to stick to their March release date. Whether or not they do, we can't help but wonder why this wasn't something implemented from the start.
  • 1/13/2009 4:30 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    This "news" got picked up by 1Up -- maybe it will spread and Microsoft will move quickly to avoid PR disaster? It's pretty doubtful, but we can hope, right?
  • 1/13/2009 5:27 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    One has to wonder why these people would only speak if they could be anonymous? What are they afraid of?
  • 1/13/2009 5:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Good point Jim, the developers who are actually affected by this are not posting anonymously in here are they? More gamer 'press' rubbish... I hope Kathleen is giving her ex collegues a hard time. 'Anonymous' == 'we made it up based on some things we read in a forum by a guy named "Darth Veeder"'

    Why isn't this information made available to me by Microsoft?

    Well Wolvie75 VwR the main reason is becuase you don't have a game on Community games at the moment so there is no information for you. I don't even see one in peer review or play test. So seems to me you don't have much to worry about yet. Please keep the trolling over at 1up - if you were an incoming XNA developer with a game imminent you would have known about this weeks ago. If you don't have an imminent game then it doesn't affect you.
  • 1/13/2009 5:55 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Jim Perry:
    One has to wonder why these people would only speak if they could be anonymous? What are they afraid of?


    it just sounds more dramatic that way.  :P
  • 1/13/2009 6:02 AM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Novaleaf Software:
    Jim Perry:
    One has to wonder why these people would only speak if they could be anonymous? What are they afraid of?


    it just sounds more dramatic that way.  :P


    Novaleaf is the anonymous source... I knew it ;-) I've not listened to this candid interview yet http://evolvedgaming.net/2009/01/evolved-gaming-episode-30-novaleaf-ceo-jason-biology-battle-interview/ is that where you anonymously tipped off the world about the injustices and violations of developer rights?
  • 1/13/2009 12:07 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Barryman:
    This "news" got picked up by 1Up -- maybe it will spread and Microsoft will move quickly to avoid PR disaster? It's pretty doubtful, but we can hope, right?


    Depends on what is the bigger PR disaster: Not responding or giving out devastating sales numbers. If they only have low sales right now their early release could destroy CG before it has even started in most countries. The majority in this thread seems to be in it for the money, if there's no money to be made there won't be new games. I have spent $60 on CG so far - but I fear I'm a very small minority. Most people I talk to don't even know Community Games, its launch got overshadowed by NXE.
  • 1/13/2009 1:18 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    I am becoming progressively more disheartened by the progressive narrow-mindness of (certain sections) of this community. Months before launch, the uproar of the community was focused at the non-allowance of free Community Games, whereas now, everyone seems to see this as an opportunity for a quick buck. Alot of hostile views have appeared where people are viewing other games as potentially stealing their sales, where quick cash-in screensavers are appearing as the norm.

    Of course I realise that some people here are annoyed as this is now their business venture, but I must question the business saviness of these people for investing into an unproven market where the cost of entry is so low that market forces will crush 95% of products. Yes, Community Games could use better promotion from Microsoft, but the real issue is that the community has shifted away from viewing CG as a portal for independent games to a business opportunity.

    It is also important to realise that we are not being paid any less frequently than professional developers; equally sales tracking services are not free to professional developers either. We are not being screwed considering the barrier to entry is so low.
  • 1/13/2009 1:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Novaleaf Software:

    So when that day comes, I'd prefer to have another high-quality title ready for release, thus my continued support and focus on the XNA platform.


    Do you want to invest more time / effort into something you don't know is worth it again? As developers we had very rigid deadlines for launch and betas etc, so why doesn't this work both ways? Even if Microsoft don't have the long term report structure in place, why cant they just email us our own results?
  • 1/13/2009 1:54 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    MonsuneMoon:
    ...why cant they just email us our own results?

    Maybe they don't have access to the data yet? An example - I'm working on a website where I need access to data in our accounting system. The accounting system has all the data I need in it, but I don't have access to it. I have to request a report be created to give me this data and it's not just as simple as sending an email to someone to ask for the data. Now imagine this problem magnified about a kajillion times. :)

    Microsoft isn't a simple company where one of the XNA team can walk into the Accounting department and ask for the data. People seem to forget this (or just ignore it because it makes their complaints seem more valid).

    Another thought I had last night - How many of the people that are saying this data is vital to them and their business thought about creating a Windows Games version of their games and selling them? This has been available and free since day 1 and given the relative ease of creating multiple platform versions of XNA Framework games would have meant more potential income for not much more work.
  • 1/13/2009 2:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Jim Perry:
    MonsuneMoon:
    ...why cant they just email us our own results?

    Maybe they don't have access to the data yet?

    Are you serious? Do you really believe in what you just said?
  • 1/13/2009 2:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Jim Perry:
    MonsuneMoon:
    ...why cant they just email us our own results?

    Maybe they don't have access to the data yet? An example - I'm working on a website where I need access to data in our accounting system. The accounting system has all the data I need in it, but I don't have access to it. I have to request a report be created to give me this data and it's not just as simple as sending an email to someone to ask for the data. Now imagine this problem magnified about a kajillion times. :)

    Microsoft isn't a simple company where one of the XNA team can walk into the Accounting department and ask for the data. People seem to forget this (or just ignore it because it makes their complaints seem more valid).

    Another thought I had last night - How many of the people that are saying this data is vital to them and their business thought about creating a Windows Games version of their games and selling them? This has been available and free since day 1 and given the relative ease of creating multiple platform versions of XNA Framework games would have meant more potential income for not much more work.


    I'm not sure that they have such a difficult, if they can release selling charts and popularity charts they have the data, no doubt about this. If they do not release to us these datas they have other reasons than "technical" difficults.
    Another thing: telling us that we can release our games as a window game do not resolve the issue (and xbox games vs windows games have different targets, design, controls and performances); we want to know if developing CG games is a way to put something to eat on the table or just an hobby, what is the budget to assign to a CG project and which priority assign internally to it. Everybody here tried the new thing with a tiltle but now everybody is asking: "What's next? How much efforts and budget on the next game?"
     
    I had a thought: maybe CG games are meant to be pure hobbist games and this is a way to descourage professionale developers? Just a doubt I have.
  • 1/13/2009 2:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Our team love you :-) Running Pixel !!!
  • 1/13/2009 3:04 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Running Pixel:

     
    I had a thought: maybe CG games are meant to be pure hobbist games and this is a way to descourage professionale developers? Just a doubt I have.


    I doubt this, inability to do achievements, leader boards, or even be recorded in a gamer profile are all pretty big blows to keep professional developers who can secure a XBLA contract doing so. Not to mention the disk size limitations and other restrictions.
  • 1/13/2009 3:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Sales Figures/Data "by March"

    Oscar K:
    where quick cash-in screensavers are appearing as the norm.


    2/120 ? Hardly the norm....
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