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Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

Last post 9/9/2014 1:36 PM by dadoo Games. 483 replies.
  • 9/4/2009 8:11 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    It's not going overboard. The example with the friend walking up is just one example. The fact is that the game shouldn't accept input from any device other than the other that the player(s) is using and the game should gracefully handle any situations involving that controller (disconnects, etc.)
  • 9/4/2009 8:47 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Is there a way to have a "Community Agreement" about this? What about a poll? I'd really would like that on this issue we could have all the same behaviour when reviewing a game.

    Cheers,
    Pino
  • 9/4/2009 9:26 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Jim Perry:
    The fact is that the game shouldn't accept input from any device other than the other that the player(s) is using and the game should gracefully handle any situations involving that controller (disconnects, etc.)


    "Should" I agree with you. "Must" I don't. Even with that I only disagree with multiple controllers. Disconnect "should" always be handled IF and ONLY IF it affects the game play. This sort of thing varies greatly by game and player. Arguements can be made for both sides. We all agree a large number of these games are failures due to the fact the game is bad. Until you solve that, little stuff like this is a waste of time. This system isn't going to work until everyone realizes that every game and every developer is different. Some things we can make a one rule fits all. Some things are just going to vary by game and by developer. Like who cares what the Fireworks app do with the controller? A platform game however can be a very different story.

    Patrick
  • 9/5/2009 10:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Star Gaming Network:
    Like who cares what the Fireworks app do with the controller? A platform game however can be a very different story.

    That's why I said "gracefully". I agree that it doesn't matter in the case of a screensaver if the controller is disconnected.
  • 9/7/2009 1:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    I have a question about the screenshots:
    "promotional materials that are not appropriate for all ages (screenshots, box art, etc.)"

    what does that mean, no blood and gore? no bad words? I've seen some games with blood (more or less all zombies games) in their screenshots and no one seems to care.
  • 9/7/2009 1:33 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Fabian Viking:
    ... no one seems to care.

    Maybe it's more like, the people that care haven't seen them. If you see something that shouldn't be on the service report it and it'll get looked at.
  • 9/7/2009 1:55 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    I personally dont believe that screenshots of video game violence will affect kids. Just wanna know if i can have blood in my own screenshots. I think people hate me enough already, i wont report any games..
  • 9/7/2009 2:17 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Fabian Viking:
    I personally dont believe that screenshots of video game violence will affect kids.

    It's not about what you or I believe (I'm with you to a certain extent), but about the rules MS has laid down. As long as you're not using screenshots of things like realistic decapitations or sucking chest wounds you'll probably be ok. :)
  • 9/7/2009 2:44 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Ok I had more comic style blood in mind, thanks for the help (sucking chest wounds?? what is that?)
  • 9/8/2009 1:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Fabian Viking:
    (sucking chest wounds?? what is that?)

    The result of starting to type one thing, typing another instead, and forgetting to delete all of the first thing? I've had it happen many times, but I usually scan through my posts right after posting them to fix any typos like that.

    I'm guessing he meant something like "open chest wounds" - probably meaning that a CSI-style autopsy in the screenshot might be crossing the line. (ooh, there's a game idea! "Who Did I Autopsy Last Night?" ;) )


    More on topic, I was reading the past few pages and someone asked if leaving Guide.SimluateTrialMode in the final build is a fail reason or not. That question was never really answered as there was more talk about having all of the controllers control the game and poorly translated game descriptions. What is the final answer on that? (personally I am for it, since it means we cannot properly review the code path of starting the game in non-trial mode)
  • 9/8/2009 2:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Someone start a game, it says "buy?". He buys it. Next time he start the game it says "buy?" - then he will be confused - then it will be a failure.

    You test trial mode in review by selecting "Run trial mode" on your xbox - problem solved!
  • 9/8/2009 2:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    UberGeekGames:
    Fabian Viking:
    (sucking chest wounds?? what is that?)

    The result of starting to type one thing, typing another instead, and forgetting to delete all of the first thing? I've had it happen many times, but I usually scan through my posts right after posting them to fix any typos like that.

    I'm guessing he meant something like "open chest wounds" - probably meaning that a CSI-style autopsy in the screenshot might be crossing the line. (ooh, there's a game idea! "Who Did I Autopsy Last Night?" ;) )

    Actually, it's the result of watching Surviving Disaster. :)

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumothorax

  • 9/8/2009 4:07 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Fabian Viking:
    Someone start a game, it says "buy?". He buys it. Next time he start the game it says "buy?" - then he will be confused - then it will be a failure.


    No, because the Guide.SimulateTrialMode flag is inactive/ignored once the game gets onto the marketplace. So for a consumer, this situation never happens. So this alone is not a valid argument for making a fail reason out of this.

    There have been two valid arguments so far:
    • What Jim said: If Guide.SimulateTrialMode is true during review, then reviewers never see the code path that the game runs through at startup if the game is not in trial mode. No matter how a reviewer starts the game, he will always go through the startup code path of the trial mode. So there could be forbidden material (or crashes, etc.) hidden in the non-trial mode startup code.
    • What someone else said: There is no way for the reviewer to tell, if the game behaves like it does because the programmer left Guide.SimulateTrialMode in (so that later on the marketplace the game will behave correctly, as I explained above), or if it behaves like this simply because it is badly programmed, and the fact that it seems to run in trial mode has nothing to do with the Guide.SimulateTrialMode flag but just with shoddy programming. In the latter case, the incorrect behavior would also be displayed to consumers. And then Fabian's argument of "confusing -> fail" would fit again.

    With these two arguments, I personally agree that we have enough reasons to count this as a failure.

    Doc

  • 9/18/2009 11:29 AM In reply to

    Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Hi,

    some advice please! I'm reviewing a game having a problem on my SDTV. The problem IMO is ground for failure but as is not clear in the EC I would know if there is any established practice. Here's the issue: The game has been written using some wrong scaling formula that in the menu the selector doesn't actually select the choices so one has to imagine what is actually selected. I hit twice Exit before to realize it wasn't me.

    As it's confusing and the player cannot properly select a menu option I think I should fail this game, what do you people advice?

    thanks,
    Pino
  • 9/18/2009 12:22 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Sounds like a fail to me.
  • 9/18/2009 1:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Yup, that's a fail.
  • 9/18/2009 2:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Ok guys, thanks, I've done that accordingly.

    Cheers,
    Pino
  • 9/22/2009 4:43 PM In reply to

    Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Hi,

    me again :) I've failed a game (here) because the Guide didn't pause the game as it is supposed to do. The gamers are used to this behaviour (the 100% of the DVD and Arcade game I've tested all pause when the Guide window is shown) so if a game designer chooses not to pause the game this should be highlighted in some way. What happened to me (and I think to any gamer in the same condition) is that I hit Guide to answer the phone... when I was back I discovered that the game timer didn't stop!

    Another creator think that my decision to fail the game because of this issue is not correct, so I'm asking here to get some guidance for future reviews.

    Cheers,
    Pino
  • 9/22/2009 4:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Not pausing a game isn't a failure. It's considered a good practice, some might even say a best practice, but it's not grounds for failure. It's not a bug that crashes the game and the only confusion it causes to the player is when they wonder why in the world this stupid game doesn't have a pause feature.

    I would highly encourage a developer to add one. But unfortunately we can't fail games that people don't bother polishing.
  • 9/22/2009 4:57 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    I do NOT think this is a fail IF the game has a pause method that the user can use (for example hitting the Start or Back buttons to pause). If there is not other way to pause the game then you MIGHT fail a game for this if not pausing the game would cause the user to loose the game with no way to pause other than the guide.
  • 9/22/2009 5:53 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    hotshot 10101:
    I do NOT think this is a fail IF the game has a pause method that the user can use (for example hitting the Start or Back buttons to pause). If there is not other way to pause the game then you MIGHT fail a game for this if not pausing the game would cause the user to loose the game with no way to pause other than the guide.

    No, you cannot fail a game for this. At best, you simply just don't submit a review. If the developer is stupid enough to not provide this functionality his game probably doesn't deserve to be approved. You should post in that game's thread that you won't approve it for this reason, but you cannot fail it, period. This issue has been discussed several times in the past. Bad game design isn't a fail-able offense, it's just bad game design. If the game is approved and players have a problem they can hit the Report Abuse button (or whatever it's called :D) to report it as a piece of crap that doesn't deserve to be on XBLIG (although I don't know if it will do any good).
  • 9/22/2009 6:00 PM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Ok guys, thanks for the feedback. I owe an apology to the author of that game :)

    Cheers,
    Pino
  • 9/23/2009 12:48 AM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Also time to review the Not So Evil list http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/30487.aspx - this case has been previously discussed and is on that list.
  • 9/23/2009 6:53 AM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    The ZMan:
    Also time to review the Not So Evil list http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/30487.aspx - this case has been previously discussed and is on that list.
    Ops! The worse is that I'm translating that into Italian... so I've no excuses... I'm just getting old... :(
  • 9/23/2009 9:13 AM In reply to

    Re: Evil Checklist Discussion thread.

    Star Gaming Network:
    Like who cares what the Fireworks app do with the controller? A platform game however can be a very different story.
    Jim Perry:
    That's why I said "gracefully". I agree that it doesn't matter in the case of a screensaver if the controller is disconnected.
    I feel very strongly towards NOT failing games based on which controllers are or are not active.

    In my own project I am working on, I allow any controller to interact with the game BY DESIGN.  Also, the game WILL NOT be interrupted if any or ALL controllers turn off or become disconnected, once again, BY DESIGN.  Not all projects require input devices!

    To fail a project such as mine just based on some loose rules about controller functionality and not taking into account WHY they work the way they do in the project they are being used in, would be just plain arrogant and ignorant to the fact that not all situations need, require, or WANT control to be isolated to a single device.  To do so would be limiting the creativeness of the Creators in this community.
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