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XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX 2007

Last post 3/18/2009 7:58 AM by Mateusz Kierepka. 28 replies.
  • 4/30/2007 12:51 PM

    XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX 2007

    EDIT: I'm updating this post to clear up some confusion. Since it's now 2009, this announcement didn't seem to amount to much, or nothing we've been able to see at this point. This was originally about running Silverlight inside XNA. If you're interested instead in running XNA code inside Silverlight, nothing has been announced by Microsoft on this either, but I have created a library called SilverSprite that allows you to compile your XNA 2D code into a Silverlight application. See more info here:

    http://www.codeplex.com/silversprite

    Original post:

    Just heard it...Ray Ozzie says XNA will support Silverlight.

    Not sure if this refers to the "XNA brand" which includes all of the Microsoft gaming thechologies or to GSE.

  • 4/30/2007 2:17 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    I'm watching the Scott Guthrie interview http://channel9.msdn.com/showpost.aspx?postid=304508 and so far he's not mentioned any XNA stuff. Apparently its going to run on the Mac though...

    [edit: At 19:00 in the video he comfirms WIndows and Mac only, but says they are looking at other platforms incluidng "mobile devices". No mention of XNA :-( ]

    Looks like the keynotes will be available for download from here http://visitmix.com/Blogs/Joshua/ray-ozzie-and-scott-guthrie-keynote/ later so we can all analyze Ray's exact words body language and speculate wildly

  • 4/30/2007 3:05 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    First Silverlight is not working on CompactFramework so it will not run on Xbox360, second it is working on Micro.NET framework ;).
    For me it would be great if XNA will implement it's own Silverlight parser (for GUI development).
    Again silverlight parser should not including XNA (as far as I can imagine it should be easy to include XNA in full WPF).
  • 4/30/2007 3:16 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Yeah XNA was prominent in the slide which listed all the upcoming Silverlight platforms, and there was a picture of an Xbox 360 in another slide, but what exactly "XNA" is in this case is hard to say. Could be some new Xbox 360 integration outside of GSE...
  • 4/30/2007 3:26 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    kierepka:
    For me it would be great if XNA will implement it's own Silverlight parser (for GUI development).

    Probably way too early to announce anything real, but I am toying with such a thing for some time now - postponed a bit due to knowing the new version would arrive today. Anyway, the parser it self is rather simple to write, implementing all the layout, rendering and animation stuff is the time consuming part :)

  • 4/30/2007 4:54 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Ok here's the actual quote...Ray Ozzie said...

    "...Silverlight changes the game by giving you a new choice for developing incredibly sophisticated rich internet applications in the language of your choice. It's a first-class .Net runtime environment allowing you to leverage existing skills and tools across the continuum of server and service, browser, mobile device, and with XNA, even on the game console..."

  • 5/1/2007 2:04 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    I talk already on MVP Summit that is sad that there is no:

    - browser on Xbox (like PocketIE), and no support for real LIVE services (MSN, Search, Maps, Messenger (sic!), Office Live etc.) - don't ask me why...
    - no good integration XNA with .NET 3.0 (WCF, WPF/ WPF/e - SilverLight, etc) - don't ask me why... maybe because there is no .NET 3.0 for PocketPC/WindowsCE - still don't understand why. They can make WPF/e for .NET Microframework, but can't do for Compact Framework?
    - no other good stuff (MSN Games, Microsoft TV - ok it will be in future, but not this same)

    I don't know why Microsoft always doing things twice, and not integrate their own services (tools for developer like XACT, PIX - why they are so different then Visual Studio and not even support Visual Studio - for example working as a plug-in?).

     For me it is strange - I understand that Microsoft is big, I understand that each team can do things in their own way, but why this things are separated? Why they live in different worlds? I'm talking about lack in productivity and integration.

     

     

     

  • 5/1/2007 3:31 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    kierepka:

    I don't know why Microsoft always doing things twice, and not integrate their own services (tools for developer like XACT, PIX - why they are so different then Visual Studio and not even support Visual Studio - for example working as a plug-in?).

    Different groups do different things, and shoehorning XACT/PiX into VS would be rather suboptimal anyway, e.g. having to install VS to use XACT or PiX adds a lot of cost and XACT target audience are audio designers, not developers.

    kierepka:

    For me it is strange - I understand that Microsoft is big, I understand that each team can do things in their own way, but why this things are separated? Why they live in different worlds? I'm talking about lack in productivity and integration.

    Why should everything be integrated for the sake of integration only? Yes, I'd like to see WPF in XNA (even the subset that is known as Silverlight now, hence the Bronzeglow project =]) but the media streaming features in Silverlight - which seems to be the current, big thing everyone talks about - does not make too much sense for XNA, especially as XNA does not have any network support (yet). If all teams did live in the same world, innovation (yes, this poor word is way to abused inside MS) would be limited by support of all platforms (Sidenote: I wonder how things were in respect to .NET support if the 360 featured a x86 compatibile CPU instead of the PowerPC one...) Anyway, diversity is not bad at all, demanding that new stuff is available everywhere at the split second it is released for another platform is :]

  • 5/1/2007 3:51 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Bjoern Graf:

    Different groups do different things, and shoehorning XACT/PiX into VS would be rather suboptimal anyway, e.g. having to install VS to use XACT or PiX adds a lot of cost and XACT target audience are audio designers, not developers.

    Ok - but why don't open XACT or PIX in Visual Studio as a Plugin? I understand that it is not for developers, but developers still use it. I can imagine that it should be simple thing to open Xact as COM or other object and make for it plugin in VS. I can pay extra memory usage for this but I hate ALT+TAB switching just for looking in Xact. Anyway I still don't understand why we can't use XACT or PIX as plugin...

    Bjoern Graf:

    Why should everything be integrated for the sake of integration only? Yes, I'd like to see WPF in XNA (even the subset that is known as Silverlight now, hence the Bronzeglow project =]) but the media streaming features in Silverlight - which seems to be the current, big thing everyone talks about - does not make too much sense for XNA, especially as XNA does not have any network support (yet). If all teams did live in the same world, innovation (yes, this poor word is way to abused inside MS) would be limited by support of all platforms (Sidenote: I wonder how things were in respect to .NET support if the 360 featured a x86 compatibile CPU instead of the PowerPC one...) Anyway, diversity is not bad at all, demanding that new stuff is available everywhere at the split second it is released for another platform is :]

    6 months (from .NET 3.0) and almost 1 year when WPF/e was shown is not a second, especially when they can do this same things on .NET Microframework. I still think that integration is not bad when we are talking about productivity.
    You should look at Eclipse and support for different tools. Why Java developers can have nice tool which integrates with Flash, .NET, Java and other products?
    Ok and why there is Visual Studio Team Edition - it integrates so many things (database development, tests, project management etc.) for different peoples in team (manager, tester, programmer, database manager, administrator, it designer) - because of productivity!

  • 5/1/2007 4:51 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    kierepka:

    Ok - but why don't open XACT or PIX in Visual Studio as a Plugin? I understand that it is not for developers, but developers still use it. I can imagine that it should be simple thing to open Xact as COM or other object and make for it plugin in VS. I can pay extra memory usage for this but I hate ALT+TAB switching just for looking in Xact. Anyway I still don't understand why we can't use XACT or PIX as plugin...

    It is also a matter of spending time (and money) on something not really required (how is ALT+TAB worse than CTRL+TAB?) and extending/adding features into the products.

    kierepka:

    6 months (from .NET 3.0) and almost 1 year when WPF/e was shown is not a second, especially when they can do this same things on .NET Microframework. I still think that integration is not bad when we are talking about productivity.

    The MF implements different things than the CF on the 360. Also, the CF for the 360 is not done by the same team but the XNA people, who also had to do the XNA Framework implementation. Adding the Silverlight object tree, that I assume not everyone would use, would have delayed XNA...

    kierepka:

    You should look at Eclipse and support for different tools. Why Java developers can have nice tool which integrates with Flash, .NET, Java and other products?

    Orcas integrates WPF designers for both, the "real" WPF and Silverlight, so the same level of integration will come to VS.

    Anyway, we might need to stop here or the wrath of the Z might come upon this thread :)

  • 5/1/2007 5:06 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Just last 2 cents:

    Bjoern Graf:

    It is also a matter of spending time (and money) on something not really required (how is ALT+TAB worse than CTRL+TAB?) and extending/adding features into the products.

    I can't agree this is not metter of spending time - this is metter of vision for products...

     

    Bjoern Graf:

    The MF implements different things than the CF on the 360. Also, the CF for the 360 is not done by the same team but the XNA people, who also had to do the XNA Framework implementation. Adding the Silverlight object tree, that I assume not everyone would use, would have delayed XNA...

    I still can't agree - CF for 360 was made by CompactFramework team - check thier web site: http://blogs.msdn.com/netcfteam/.

    OK - EOT :)

     

  • 5/1/2007 7:42 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Yup, just watched the keynote back and he says this pretty early, and it's in the transcript up on the Microsoft Press Room, hopefully it wasn't just a slip of the tongue. When I read LetsKillDave's blog post a couple of weeks back it does sound rather interesting worded (with the benefit of hindsight).

    "We have no announced plans to integrate Silverlight with XNA Game Studio Express."

    I wonder if the inclusion of the word 'announced' was very deliberate, because unless what Ray Ozzie said was a slip of the tongue or misconstued, the plans do now appear to be announced...

    ajmiles

  • 5/1/2007 7:58 AM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Well after pondering on this for a day, I feel that this may not be what it originally sounded like. First of all there were absolutely no dates given, and given the importance that is being given to Silverlight, it's not much of a stretch to assume that someday Silverlight will run on the Xbox. If it run on the Xbox, that's using an "XNA" technology. Big umbrella XNA, not necessarily XNA GSE. This fits in with rumors that the Xbox is going to become an interactive multimedia set top box (some rumors about the Elite were that the bigger hard drive is to support DVR). A technology like Silverlight would definitely help create something like that.

    So yes, I'm sure someday XNA will support Silverlight, just no indication of when or exactly how. 

  • 5/1/2007 1:39 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    kierepka:

    I can't agree this is not metter of spending time - this is metter of vision for products...



    That seems a little harsh :-)

    There is always a balance between doing things perfectly, and doing them now. Obviously it would be nice if everything was integrated and all technology was available everywhere and it all interoperated with 100% compatibility in all directions, but if we waited until that was possible, we would never actually get around to shipping anything! By the time we were even half way through achieving that level of integration, Visual Studio would be onto their next-but-one version, and WPF would probably have continued to improve on the desktop, so we'd have to start all over again integrating with their newer versions!

    Integration is a good thing, and please believe me this is something we spend a lot of time thinking about and working on. How do you think we managed to get .NET onto the Xbox in the first place, if not by working with other teams and finding ways to reuse existing technology from across the company?

    There is a very real limit on what is possible in any given timeframe, though. The more different teams involved in lining up their dates and schedules, the longer it takes to pull everything together into a shippable product. This gets especially difficult if you are trying to build on top of a technology that isn't even finished at the time you are trying to build your own product.

    Do I think Silverlight is cool and interesting?  Absolutely!

    Are we interested in someday integrating it with XNA?  Very possibly.

    Could we have shipped XNA in 2006 if we had waited for Silverlight to be ready?  No way.

    Was it worth shipping a managed development platform for Xbox in the absence of Silverlight?  You decide...

  • 5/1/2007 1:47 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    well said
  • 5/1/2007 2:33 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Shawn Hargreaves:
    That seems a little harsh :-)


    Yes I agree.

    [...]


    ps. I know all limitations for XNA and I'm glad that it is present on the market and that it is free. I'm just _supprised_ that we are talking about Silverlight on Xbox360/XNA, when there is no WPF/e on CompactFramework just in .NET MicroFramework...
  • 5/1/2007 2:35 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    I agree with everything Shaun is saying and they definitely made the right decision when deciding to launch in 2006. At the same time though I'm still just a little confused what Ray was talking about when he mentions XNA "on a game console" in the same breath has talking about Silverlight. Was this just a "now Silverlight plays with .Net this is possible (but we're not doing it)" because if it was it confused a few people, me included. Obviously you can't put words in his mouth, only he knows what he meant when he said it, but we all (most of us) can speculate.

    ajmiles

  • 5/1/2007 4:02 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Hi all,

    I personally don't think it would be a great idea to have full integration support on XNA with everything not getting things such as a browser in the Xbox or integrated live services (even if the latter is more usefull).

    I like to get one experience in one machine and have another one with the other. This allows hardware conceptors to create the best design for what the machine is aiming.

    PC is a great box for a lot of things while the Xbox 360 is the perfect machine today for next gen games or casual games that you find in the Xbox Live Arcade.
  • 3/16/2009 5:27 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA games in Silverlight is finally here!

  • 3/16/2009 5:39 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA games in Silverlight is finally here!

    Before everyone gets too excited note that this is NOT an official XNA on silverlight solution, nor do we know if one will ever exist or is being worked on. (since thats what this thread from a year ago is about and with MIX 09 around the corner people may get confused. Right now we still have no clue what Ray Ozzie was on about...)

    Bills library is very cool and supports a good subset of the 2d XNA stuff right now... if you want to help out its on codeplex. http://www.codeplex.com/silversprite
  • 3/16/2009 5:42 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    I would like to see the XNA model (Update, Draw, Pipeline) in Silverlight.  Something like Bill Reiss' SilverSprite.  I really like the XNA model of writing apps.


  • 3/16/2009 6:17 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Zenfar:
    Something like Bill Reiss' SilverSprite


    Yeah, thats what we are talking about.... and why I felt the need to clarify given the thread title.

    Man its confusing when people wake up year old threads with something new...

  • 3/16/2009 6:40 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    "Man its confusing when people wake up year old threads with something new..."

    Well if you start a new thread people will lock it and tell you it has already been discussed and that you should search the forums :)

  • 3/16/2009 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Hmm.. I think Farseer is close to be good solution for XNA & silverlight, cross programming.

    I wrote small app few weeks ago using Farseer and Silverlight:

    http://kierepka.pl/silverspider/

  • 3/16/2009 8:01 PM In reply to

    Re: XNA announced to support Silverlight at MIX

    Isn't FarSeer a physics library?

    I am glad XNA shipped when it did and I am glad XNA is what it is.  It is my favorite managed environment.  Just give me some cycles and strong API.
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